Q: Ms Brown I see you have come along with your mini computer...
A:(Her laptop resting on her knees at her Sapphire Crescent, Diamond Vale, Diego Martin, home Thursday morning) Yes. This way I don't have to remember anything. All I have to do is to remember where I have saved whatever... (Bursts out laughing)
Your group was in the forefront of a campaign which I would short title as "Put a woman in charge..."?
Yes. It was in 1996 with a project that we called Engendering Local Government which was designed to increase the number of women in the local government system. At the time, out of 125 seats, there were only 25 women on these bodies as councillors or aldermen and four regions had none at all. By 2003 that number had more than doubled.
By way of refreshing our memory what was the main reason behind putting a woman?
Because we believe a woman would make a qualitative difference in political decision making. That women have been marginalised at the highest levels of decision making not only in the politics but in other significant sectors of national development. But we couldn't tackle everything at the same time and Parliament was a key area in which we thought decision making could be improved.
And of course the ultimate prize was the prime ministership?
(A deep breath) We didn't look at the prime ministership as a prize at that time because remember in order to be the Prime Minister you had to be the leader of a party which won the majority of seats in the Parliament, so that was something down the road. By 2007 we had almost achieved the 30 per cent target which was agreed to by the Trinidad and Tobago Government at the Commonwealth level even though we had set a target of 50 per cent.
Was it a case of putting into office just about any woman?
(Firmly responding) Of course not. What we were looking for was not just to put any woman, we were looking to put women who were prepared for the task and who would carry forward the women's agenda. The challenge was of course the political system which requires you to tow the party line, and it is only a certain kind of woman who is able to challenge that system. And you may recall Clevon that since 1996, we ran a structured training programme that helpedthe women to understand how the system worked so that they could use the system and change it.
Did Kamla Persad-Bissessar participate in that programme?
Yes, she always has. She came through the ranks as it were... local government and then parliamentary politics and if you go through the compilation of speeches that Persad-Bissessar has given over the years you would see she has always carried the women's agenda.
Is she still carrying that agenda today?
(Mopping up beads of perspiration on her forehead with a hanky) Definitely. We are very pleased to the extent given the constraints of the system because this continues to be a male dominated system, right? And it is not easy for women to just break out like that.
How is the discharging of this agenda being manifested?
Certainly in the choices of women for state boards, ministerial positions. For example we know that no one dares take a proposed state board to her without any women on it. You don't do that. That message is out there and everybody knows that.
Isn't that discriminating against us men?
(Head slightly bowed and peering from the rim of her glasses) No. Because you have been doing it all these years (half smiling) and we never said it was discrimination (another outburst of laughter). You understand? If it wasn't discrimination then, I cannot understand how it is discrimination now...that makes no sense. (Brown gives some points as to how the Prime Minister was able to transform the party system starting with her defeating Basdeo Panday for the leadership of the United National Congress leading to her being the first woman elected as Prime Minister of TT).
What does that say about the future involvement of women at the highest level of decision making in their respective parties?
It has created a certain capacity and power to change the situation..in fact I have been calling on the women both in the PNM and the COP, "Why don't you all take over that party?"
I believe it would make a difference if women change the system sufficiently as Kamla has done to win leadership of the party.
Ms Brown what makes you think a woman would make a better leader than a man?
Because she brings a different perspective especially for the people who are disenfranchised. The men have not done that; they have gone with the status quo, they have gone with the already empowered and enfranchised, that is their constituency. Every time you say woman, people put this thing about why a woman? And I say well nobody ever asked why man? That is a totally irrelevant question. Who is the person for the job? Most of the time the best person is a woman. Full stop.
Where is the empirical evidence to prove that assertion?
All over the world Clevon, there is evidence that where women have been in leadership things have turned out differently. One example in 1980 when there was this big financial crisis the only large international bank that survived was the one in Ireland that was led by a woman.
You doing your research really well, Ms Brown...
(Laughs) What we are talking about here is transformational leadership; it is not replacing men with women who behave like men.
Is our Prime Minister behaving like a man?
Absolutely not. In fact I think we ought to compliment her with how she looks. Just look at her, just look at her and you know that is not a man standing in front of you, for sure. She not into the jacket suit you understand? You could see the womanness coming out of her especially when she is around children.
You campaigned for her...and aren't you speaking with a PP bias?
I do have a PP bias yes, but I thought like so many others that there was time for positive change in Trinidad and Tobago, that the change was going to be good for us.
You are aware that her detractors are saying that the people voted for change but all they got was exchange..?
I don't think that is true. Some things still need to be transformed but you don't transform entrenched systems by getting up one morning and turning everything upside down, or throw everything outside and start all over.
You admitted that you are an unrepentant PP supporter...
(Gently stroking her chin) I did not say that. I am an unrepentant supporter of Kamla Persad-Bissessar...that is not the same thing.
As an economist do you really think the government cannot afford to pay the public sector workers more than five per cent?
I do not know and if there is any criticism I could make about this present situation is that the people, including the trade unions, have a right to know what is the exact financial situation in the country so that all of us together can agree on what is reasonable allocations to different constituencies for different purposes, we have never had that. All we had is that people come and read these two hour speeches, $1 billion for this, $100m for this, $30 million for that and so on....
Does that make their threat to shut down the country justified?
And I keep saying that this is the first time where two rights make a wrong; the unions are right, the government is right that they have a responsibility to ensure they don't spend what you don't have. Both of them are right and the answer is wrong because the process of agreeing who is to get what is flawed. And it has not been transformed so until that happens there will be no solutions.
Do you get the impression that Mrs Persad-Bissessar is transforming the system?
I think she tried but she bungled it a bit... the attempt to intervene which I thought was premature. It should have come after the information about the state of the finances of the country was put on the table, publicly. In that situation where everybody knows what is out there, what we are spending, what we could afford, what happened to the short fall of revenue in not collecting the property tax even at the old rates for two years. You are talking about serious money there.
What's your prognosis at this time?
I think the situation can still be saved by an intervention which provides the information about the state of the economy of Trinidad and Tobago, not that things are bad. That doesn't tell me anything.