The Baptist community in Trinidad and Tobago is no better off today than they were one year ago, with doctrine and politics pulling apart members of the faith. Underlining this position Rev Dr Hazel Ann Gibbs de Peza, who holds a PhD in education and is a lecturer at the University of Trinidad and Tobago, cites the case of the bulldozing of her church in October last year in Couva, as one example of discriminatory practices against followers of the faith.
She is appealing to the national community to see the Baptists as equals according to the national anthem which says where every creed and race finds an equal place.
Q: Dr de Peza, last year's Baptists' Liberation Day found the community in an unhealthy condition. What is the state of the faith this year?
A: (At her UTT Campus, Valsayn, office Wednesday afternoon, in a slow measured tone) Well, this year we are in a worst situation than we were last year).
Really?
Yes, because since the last Baptist Day they demolished our church in Couva.
And this matter is still in the court?
Yes. It was broken down because this gentleman came claiming the land is privately owned. Of course we know different. And the next day he came with a backhoe and truck and knocked down the building, carting away some of the materials and left us without a church. (A cynical grin) And what is before the court is the ownership of the land.
You cannot rebuild until the court has ruled?
Right now what is pending is for the Government to acknowledge that it is state land.
Why is this taking so long to be resolved?
Well, this happened in October last year and we met the Prime Minister the following month and she promised faithfully that it would be seen about, and as long as it is state land everything would be put in order. She assigned Minister in the Office of the Prime Minister Rodger Samuel to deal with the matter.
We went to him with all our papers and we have been waiting since then for a document from the Commissioner of State Lands saying the land is in fact state-owned to take to the courts. And to this day we have not been able to get that vital piece of information.
Have you gone to the department?
Yes. We have written to them and they said they are waiting on the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister's office is saying they are waiting on them (a cynical chuckle). That is the situation right now.
Would you say this is another instance of discriminatory action against the Baptist faith?
(Nodding positively) Yes. It is. It is. It is definitely...because they demolished our church and even if we were squatting and we were not, because we had permission to occupy the land since 1985, and with every successive government we have applied for regularisation.
In the PNM era we were given verbal approval and then the approval was concretised in the form of the URP development programme when they were building churches, where they carried out construction work on the Temple in the Sea at Waterloo. A tender was approved, a contractor was selected in 2005, and we have all those documents, right?
But then soon after they finished with the Temple in the Sea, that whole URP programme was stopped ostensibly because funds had dried up, or something like that. Unfortunately our church was next in line to be constructed so even though we did not have a written document saying we had approval to use the land, the fact that our church, the Water of Life Spiritual Baptist Church, which was approved to be constructed by URP, is adequate testimony that we were authorised to occupy the land which, as I said, we were occupying since 1985.
How come you all are not protesting as others have been doing up and down the country for one reason or the other?
Well, it is not that we have not been protesting you know. It is just we have not been burning tires and cussing, right? We went to the media and we tried to get some interviews. We went to the Prime Minister when she returned from one of her overseas trips because she wasn't here when the church was demolished. We met her at the airport, we went to the Parliament and when she saw us she called us out of the chamber and we had a meeting with her.
She called you all out?
Yes. She met us, during which she said to us: " 'Perhaps this is the reason why I am a Spiritual Baptist, for times like this where I can take up your cause.' " So we expected all will be well, right? And then she put us on to Minister Samuel and we had a lovely meeting with him all morning, where we presented all the documents and everything to him.
He asked ask us to get the latest cadastral sheet so he could use the number to get the official document from the Commissioner of State Lands. We did that and after that we saw time going so we asked for another meeting which we never got. Then we wrote again telling him like we have to go public with this.
He said, " 'no, no, it is quite alright' " since they are going to get it done and up now ( An indifferent shrug of her shoulders)...nothing.
Rev De Peza, the Baptists have historically supported the PNM. Do you think this has worked against the community in terms of getting the respect and other amenities from the State even under the successive administrations of that party?
(A pause while pondering the question) Well, I would have to say perhaps yes. But the thing is while there is a PNM support within the faith you realise there is also a UNC support, right? And in all fairness we must admit that the UNC Government was much more generous to us than the PNM administrations.
In what way?
Well, it was the UNC regime under Prime Minister Basdeo Panday who gave us the holiday; it was Basdeo Panday who gave us the land at Maloney, right? Which is much more than the PNM has done, right? Now we are seeing the UNC aspect of the government, if I may so, given the fact this is a coalition government, giving the school at Maloney to Bishop Barbara Burke, ok?
Do you have a problem with that?
No. We are extremely happy with this development, but first of all the land is divided into five sections for five different Baptist groups and the school that is to be built is on the lot awarded to Barbara Burke and one wonders...Why?
Because the Town and Country Division says the school cannot function unless there is a walkway over the Churchill-Roosevelt Highway which has not yet been built, right? The EMA spoke about the presence of a chicken farm close to the proposed school, and that particular piece of land receives the spray when the farm is being cleaned and the stench from that farm all day, all night.
Are you saying it is not a good idea to put the school there?
Obviously not. Obviously not. When you think of the environmental considerations and the fact that there is a river that runs right behind the land on which the school is to be built, and during the last rainy season the land had eroded and the school is right near where this occurred.
From all appearances that school is a non-starter?
(Another cynical laugh) Well, we have to wait and see. And remember, that church was not given to the Baptist community but to Archbishop Barbara Burke and the Council of Elders. So it is their school on their land, right? So nobody else has any say as to whether it should have been done or what could have been done or otherwise or anything like that.
Doesn't this raise the question once again of Baptist unity or the lack thereof?
Well, when the church was demolished we saw a coming together of all the factions of the Baptist faith. All came together to rally behind that particular cause. Coming out of that we named the group the United Voice of the Spiritual Baptist Faith and we started having meetings.
That is the group that went to the airport, the Parliament, and went up to meet the minister and all of that. When we said that the Government was not keeping its promises to us that didn't go too well with those who are supporting the PP Government and some people starting to pull back when we talked about confronting the Government. So we still have this kind of pulling and tugging within the faith.
Then of course, there is also the question of doctrine which keeps the faith divided. People keep saying they want to see the faith united but the unity will have to be on a social basis as a community. But in terms of doctrine we cannot be united in the true sense of the word as there are those of us who are Christians who believe in Jesus Christ and those who have other beliefs.
Can you briefly break this down?
Some of us acknowledge involvement in Shango or Orissa persuasions, there are some people who call themselves Baptists but they practice Hinduis, Islam Orissa, Christianity. They have everything mixed up in one so this is why we have to make the distinction and when we try....because the minute you speak about unity the question of doctrine must come up. That is the problem.
We tried in times past, even at this present time with the Couva church incident and we drew up a code of conduct which says we will not interfere with our doctrine and practices and when we come together we do so for the good for the community, right? But then people, political affiliations got into the mix. The unity is there but it is a bit shaky.
Are you optimistic that his would change any time soon?
(Breaks out into a long gusty laugh) I am hoping because I'm seeing signs of divisions coming up again. In an effort to work this unity the National Congress planned their activities up to tomorrow (Thursday) and we are all going to Maloney on Friday because they are going to hand over the school which is a very big day for the Baptist community.
Finally Dr De Peza, what is your greatest desire for the community at this time?
That our society will give us an equal place as the anthem says because we do not have an equal place. If I am not free to wear my head tie to work or school I do not have an equal place. Other people can wear theirs but if I wear mine it is a problem.